By Lynn Janes

The Silver City Town Council held a work session meeting February 3, 2025. Attendance to the meeting included Mayor Ken Ladner, Mayor Pro Tem Guadalupe Cano, Nicholas Prince, Rudy Bencomo and Stan Snider.

They started the meeting out with public input on the proposed notice of intent to adopt an ordinance for the citizens' advisory board. Ladner let them know they each had three minutes to make their statement. He asked them to make the comments brief and to the point.

Police Chief Freddie Portillo spoke to the council and thanked them for the opportunity to speak. He reminded the community the police work for them and having a good working relationship and gathering community input would be invaluable. "The community does and always will come first. However, I do not support this notice of intent." The community as a whole provides oversight.

The police department receives requests daily and they include requests for body cam footage. These videos have often been seen on social media and other outlets. "We have oversight from the city council, town management and the New Mexico department of public safety certification board. The policies are reviewed and revised regularly." Portillo said that now they also have lost qualified immunity. Currently they have eleven policies that have been under review and being revised. He believes they have policies in place that provided a satisfactory and effective citizen complaint process.

Video audits have been required by supervisors weekly, and they take corrective action where needed. All reports will be reviewed by supervisors and command staff. "We are proactive in providing training to all of our officers, in  which we go above and beyond the minimum training required by the state of New Mexico."

Portillo said this ordinance would impact public safety as a whole. Law enforcement in general has been struggling with recruitment and retention. Several of the officers had voiced concern over the ordinance and will consider finding employment elsewhere if it passes. "We cannot afford to lose any more officers and put the community at risk. It will also create an officer safety issue. I am going to continue to serve the community and what's best, but my job is also to protect the department from liability." If the ordinance passed, he felt it would open the door to liability.

Hector Carrillo, Bayard police chief, came to speak to the board. He has been in law enforcement for 20 years. He strongly opposes the establishment of the proposed law enforcement advisory group. It would present several challenges  that could ultimately undermine the effectiveness and integrity of the law enforcement agencies. "While community engagement is important, this advisory group introduces potential risks that may hinder law enforcement operations rather than enhance them."

An advisory group with oversight functions could lead to misinformed recommendations that conflict with established policing best practices. Law enforcement has been a highly specialized profession requiring years of training and expertise. Subjecting critical decisions to external influence from individuals unfamiliar with policing tactics, legal procedures and public safety protocols could result in unintended consequences. It could jeopardize officer safety and operational efficiency.

Carrillo further felt this group could create an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy slowing down the decision-making process that requires swift and decisive action. Police departments already operate under multiple layers of oversight including internal affairs divisions and New Mexico law enforcement academy board divisions. Adding another oversight would lead to redundancy and could lead to the diversion of valuable resources being taken away from frontline policing and crime prevention efforts.

The last thing Carrillo wanted to point out would be the diminished officer morale. The officers already work under intense scrutiny and adding another external board to evaluate the decisions could contribute to hesitation in critical situations. "Officers should feel empowered to do their jobs effectively and not be burdened by the fear of undue criticism from individuals who may not fully grasp the complexities of modern day policing."

For these reasons Carrillo urged the town council to reconsider the establishment of the advisory board. He asked that  instead they should  strengthen existing community engagement initiatives with the police department. Through public forums they could foster dialogue to address community concerns. A collaborative approach would be far more effective in promoting public safety and trust in law enforcement.

Peter Stubben said he would be very much against the advisory board. "Not that I am against better police and community relations." He said these types of boards had been done across the country and have had unintended consequences of worsening relations between the officers and people. He had submitted letters to the editor with alternatives and submitted those letters to the council to save time.

Stubben said the advisory board would set back and sour relations. It has happened before when these boards have done, and he didn't know why they wanted to stumble into this also. The objective would be awesome but would not work out doing it this way.

He had come from Brooklyn, and Queens, New York and said if the residents had problems, they would be invited to the council meetings along with the police chief and the officer that patrols their area. "They work pretty well. They are not perfect, but they work better than the review boards of Minneapolis, Chicago, New York and Los Angeles. Those review boards create more controversy than anything else."

Janna Mintz said she is a property owner and supports the community advisory board. She added it would not be an oversight board or review board. She supported the advisory board having members with expertise in areas of social work, mental health and public education. "I support the participation of individuals from each council district to provide diversity of viewpoints that reflect the scope of the entire community." She believed it will be an asset to the community as it seeks solutions to homelessness, addiction and mental illness. She pointed out being interested in reducing legal liabilities concerning law enforcement for the town. "Our gross receipts tax is out of line with other municipalities in our country as a result of the cost of legal liability and insurance premiums. It is unfortunate we bear the costs."

Jeannie Martin said she had lived in Silver City for 29 years. Ten of those years she had been employed at Fort Bayard Medical Center. She had worked with patients diagnosed with addiction, trauma and related issues. Prior to relocating to Silver City, she had been a social worker and educator. In the past three decades she had interacted on a professional basis with numerous law enforcement and in many situations. She had high praise for their skills and abilities to work with people of all ages and circumstances. In the past four years she had to call police several times during personal emergencies and been impressed and grateful for their skills and ability to communicate and provide reassurance.

Martin said she had to acknowledge the stressful times which impact all lives. "Silver City is a unique town, whose residents work together in many ways to help one another and assist those who struggle. I am fortunate and proud to be among them." The problems currently have been serious and not out of sight and listed them as being poverty, lack of affordable decent housing, family and peer violence, mental health and addiction without adequate accessible treatment being among the most urgent and clearly visible. She added that policing has been a demanding, stressful, dangerous and necessary work. However, all humans can be susceptible to mistakes in judgement, understanding and behavior. She alluded to the murder-suicide that had happened years ago and believed the proposed ordinance would be an effective step. "I support it."

Sharon Bookwalter spoke at the recent council meeting on this issue. "The advisory board would not encompass police oversight or review. I would also not have any decision making power." These have been the complaints she had heard. She had also heard it had been designed to destroy the local police department. She encouraged people to read the proposed ordinance. "It is purely advisory." It would not make any decisions or participate in decision making.

Bookwalter had brought data she had compiled by First Help (honors first responders) and another research institute. She said both had nonpartisan and unbiased information. She admitted the data didn't match for different reasons. She went over how many law enforcement officers had died in the line of duty and some by their own hand. She spoke to the number that had reported depression and thoughts of suicide. She continued that this didn't need to end in the extreme of ruining one's life and relationships with loved ones. An individual's ability to perform their job safely and effectively can suffer. "If we allow the stress of doing their job to destroy them, then we have failed them as a community." Bookwalter added that one very important and overlooked duty of the proposed community advisory board, as said in the ordinance would be to ensure maximum safety and mental health support for the local law enforcement officers. "We are not an agent working against law enforcement. We are an agent for community safety and security." At the last meeting she had said she has been a member of the Citizens for Safety and Community. They had proposed the ordinance for the citizens' advisory board.

Michael Larimore said he had not seen the new proposed ordinance. He pointed out that clearly listening to the citizens the town would not be ready for the advisory board. He agreed with the comments just made about law enforcement behavioral health being a priority. He had been made aware that the officers here used to work eight-hour shifts. They recently switched to twelve-hour shifts yet be expected to show up the next day in court. Their sleep will be routinely interrupted which affects decision making, wellbeing and more. "There needs to be more support for the police department in that area." He recommended the council develop a better relationship with law enforcement. He suggested getting to know the officers individually and know what the council can do better for the officers not what the officer can to for them.

Larimore thought the community already had a sounding board; they had the council. "They should feel comfortable going to you and letting you know they are not happy with something. Then you can take it to the police chief. So, there is already a board." The community already has a mechanism for recommendations and concerns.

Janet Wallet-Ortiz came to speak about the advisory board again. She had spoken at the last council meeting. She said she had lived and worked here for 42 years. She said most people recognize that being a police officer has been a difficult and dangerous job that does not pay enough. She thought most went into it out of a sense of community service. She admired and respected those in uniform who have done a professional job with integrity. "Let's be clear and honest. No matter how much training or expertise police officers have they can, like any of us, make mistakes." She continued by alluding to a past situation. "Because of the nature of their work their mistakes can cost lives, reverberate pain and suffering and financial cost through the entire community for years." Because of this fact she thought it would be wise and accommodating to have the advice and support of likeminded professional citizens with degrees and experience in fields related to community health. "Social workers and mental health professionals are not at odds with police work and don't pretend to know more than the police. Conversely police officers shouldn't pretend to know more about mental health and social work because it is not their area of expertise." The advisory board would not mean that officers have not been doing their job and does not mean the board can interfere with day-to-day police activities.

Wallet-Ortiz continued that it would not be in place to threaten or intimidate officers. However, it would mean the members would be strictly circumscribed in their procedures and responsibilities related to complaints brought to them. "These citizens might be intimidated or even related to the very uniforms that hold power over them." All complaints would be submitted to the police chief and not the individual officers.

The advisory board would make regular reports to the council. All work would be transparent and accountable. Wallet-Ortiz said anyone who breaks the rules will be dismissed. After one year, if the council does not want the board, it can be disbanded. She continued to allude to the need of the board, because of people not only being uncomfortable with presenting their complaint with the police department or contacting their councilor that they know has not been for the advisory board.

Wallet-Ortiz brought up the Nikki Bascom case and what all had happened. She spoke to another case in Luna County that the city and to pay out $200,000. Even thought it had not been brought to court Wallet-Ortiz said there had been sufficient evidence of police wrongdoing. She asked how many insurance companies they would have to go through and how much money would be lost on higher premiums before a citizens advisory board would be in place to prevent it. "If any police officer is afraid of being held accountable, they should not be wearing the uniform, and they need not apply for the job."

Fire Chief Milo Lambert spoke to the council. He opposed the ordinance as written. Many procedural issues had not been addressed. He went over the number being even and ties, quorums, etc. He had a story about a recent incident he had been involved in. About eight months previously they had received a call that a cat was stuck up on a powerline, a high voltage power line. The story ended up on Facebook. Social media the next day crucified him because he would not put an aluminum ladder next to a high voltage power line to remove a cat. His answer had been how many cat skeletons had people seen on power lines. He had looked to see if cats had died on power lines and could not find any. They had called the electric company, and they came eventually, several days later with an urging from the governor's office to remove the cat that would have gotten down on its own. Lambert said for the next four months he had been crucified online and told he hated cats.

"The passing of a citizens advisory board will lead us to these same situations." He added he has specialized knowledge and immense amount of training in the performance of his duties. The people that crucified him on Facebook did not have this knowledge. The creation of a citizens' advisory board will be opening the door for people who do not have an immense amount of knowledge and specialized training in police operations to weigh in on their opinion. "Maybe the chief can be a cat hater also." Lambert closed by saying to the council, "Are you not a citizens' advisory board? Doesn't the public have the right to come to you with complaints to be addressed through city management?"

John Prejean spoke to the council and said he as well would be opposed to the ordinance for an advisory board. It has been said that this would be a positive step in bridging the gap between the police department and the community. He pointed out some drawbacks. Community advisory boards have struggled to fully understand the complexities of law enforcement work and the unique challenges officers face on a daily basis. While designed to bridge the gap, the members may lack a deep understanding of the intense training and rapid decision making that officers face on a daily basis. Instead, the members focus on idealistic expectations without fully appreciating the significant realities of maintaining public safety and dealing with unpredictable situations. The disconnect can lead to miscommunication, frustration and an effective collaboration. It will ultimately hinder the ability of law enforcement to do their duty.

The second thing Prejean said the council can sometimes be used as a token gesture to appease public concerns of supposed police accountability. By creation of these boards police departments, it may appear as though they're not engaging with the community but in reality, the boards may be a tool creating a rift between law enforcement and the community.

Prejean pointed out that these boards sometimes become disproportionately composed of individuals with more privileged or influential voices. Therefore, they will not be fully representing the diverse communities that have been most impacted by law enforcement which leads to lack of representation for marginal groups. Some community members may feel a lack of trust of the board. The relationship between the Silver City Police Department and the community has historically been healthy.

If the community views the citizens. advisory board as merely a tool for policing the police, it can further create resentment rather than fostering a meaningful collaboration. Not enough studies have been done showing any effective collaboration between citizen advisory boards with rural law enforcement communities. Prejean concluded that although law enforcement community advisory boards have the potential to improve police and community relations, they also have many drawbacks such as lack of power, tokenism, misrepresentation and resistance to change. It highlights the need for more effective substantive methods of communication with law enforcement officials.

Jose Ray had spoken at the last meeting. He said he would not be for this board and hoped the council would not pass it. "I do not appreciate the fact the things in the past keep being brought up. We don't know what is going to happen in the future." He felt if these people were going to be talked about, they need to have permission from the people injured. He had been referring to bringing up the Nikki Bascom case. He complimented the comments made by Portillo and Lambert. "We don't need to interfere with the police department. I support them." He felt the citizens' advisory board would open up a can of worms for everything else. "Anything we give up, no matter how small, will open up the door for more options. Please do not do this."

James Harris said he would be entirely opposed to this ordinance after reading it three times. He had read it carefully and said it would be dumb. The police department has already been underfunded due to the state. Various people in leadership had already tied one hand behind their back making it harder for them to do their jobs. They have lost many things they once had. The budget cuts have reduced their training and counseling. The citizens' advisory board would just create more bureaucracy and added red tape.

Harris had a proposal instead of the citizens advisory board. "We should actually implement a give back to our law enforcement agencies." Everyone can do something simple, a gesture such as cookies, go meet with them, say hello, give them the support they need to do their jobs. "You already have a citizens' advisory board; it is you on this city council."

He asked the town council to look into what happened with citizens' advisory boards in other places. They have ended up filled with corruption even in small communities.

Chris Hill said, "The community is not ready for this. The opinions made, statistics, facts speak for themselves." When he first heard about it, he thought it would be a good idea but it's not right. "You get in a sick loop of policing the police." He gave the example of the town council being responsible for the budget, so they need an advisory board to advise them. "I think that would be offensive to a lot of you." Some people for this board and might be on it have been vocal about not being for law enforcement. "This is unprofessional and unethical." He had heard the citizen advisory board would not be involved in policy or decision making and had read the ordinance, and it does not add up to what some people have said. It has specific paragraphs that request information that would lead to litigation. It asks for certain information from the police officers. "I tell my team to stay in your lane. This is not in your lane. I get your concerns but the stuff you are speaking of should not involve law enforcement." He asked that they listen to the professional men and women such as the town attorney, Lambert, Portillo, etc. They already have the entities structured to address what has been talked about.

Hill said citizens should be coming to the town council. He spoke to the "coffee with the mayor" and how maybe that could be done with the police department. If people still feel they need a mediator that would be fine.

This group looks like a DEI hire because of having specific groups. "This is not right for law enforcement. "We need to be providing more money to facilitate training and a better financial package. I imagine that is a pipe dream,  but that is what we should be doing." They need more funds and resources for what they do. "My interactions with our police officers have been incredible. The issues of addiction and mental health should not involve our police department. I highly suggest you do not move forward with this."

Hill said he has been told the version he had read has been changed and the things of his concern have been removed, and he would like to see that. The version he has read does not add up to what people in favor of this have said. He also felt it had been emotionally written. "I am 100 percent against it as written. I think we have a ton of options and resources already set up for the specific incident that we are talking about."

Andy Payne spoke at the last council meeting also. He felt the citizen advisory board would build community trust. "Any government agency that's truly trying to do its job would welcome advice and suggestions from the people they serve." He cited at the last council meeting, a police union representative had stood in opposition of the citizen advisory board. "It was very disappointing and counterproductive because some people in the community could regard that statement as being arrogant." He said it might be a harsh word but what word would be used to describe a government agency that opposes accepting any more advice or suggestions from the public it serves. He further added that opposition creates distrust and generates questions. He cited a number of questions the public might ask.

With a functioning police advisory board, they could dispense all the skeptical questions. "I was in education and was a public employee just as police officers are public employees." He continued that their teachers union always advocated for public input. They would not ever pass up another layer of communication. Payne said because of that their turnover had been low and job satisfaction high. He believed that they could have the same outcome if communication and trust increased.

Shelby Hallmark said, "Silver City is a wonderful place to live and a magical place, but there is always opportunity to improve." He  thought communication could improve. The police union would be a vehicle for communication and deserves to be supported for that reason. He spoke to what Lambert had said about Facebook and agreed they didn't want that and that would not be what the citizens' advisory board would be about. "This should be about organizing and making communication sensible and helpful no conflictual." He urged the council to try something new and better and go forward in the future and not in fear of difficulties.

Paul Leetmae said he had been in Silver City for 15 years now and knew many of the council and administration on a first-name basis. He had a question that he thought might seem like a stupid one. The chief of police reports to who? He said they didn't need to answe.r they knew. Not a trick question. "I would also like to ask the potential oversight committee members what  your tenure in Silver City, your employment status and background is. It is relevant in this context and what you want to advise our police department on."

Leetmae had read the proposal for the citizens advisory board, and it indicated eight individuals, four of which he had been left to guess would need to meet some criteria by the town council. He had concerns about who these board members would be.

Leetmae proposed the question to everyone. How many frontline officers, sheriffs deputies, state police, probation, patrol, code enforcement people do you know in town on a first-name basis? He asked because he said he did know a lot of these people who have been doing the very best that they can do to keep up with the big city problems that have all of a sudden shown up in this little town. "They don't do this for their own profit and power, they do this to serve our community." He asked the proposed oversight people if they had ever done a ride along with an officer, if they knew the average wage for law enforcement, had they ever thought of setting up a neighborhood watch group and reporting  to the town council. "We have had a recent change with the district attorney, and he has a good relationship with police." He thought with Portillo at the helm they should take a little pause and rethink this. "Get out of the way and let the police do their jobs."

Wendy Graves said, "It appears that there has been disinformation circulating regarding this proposal. As written the ordinance includes no oversight, only an advisory board specifically without oversight." She continued that she could not emphasize enough the importance of fidelity when it came to discussing any proposed language.

Steven Laramore currently serves as the president of the Silver City Police Officers Association. He had signed up for public input and had spoken at the last council meeting. For some reason he did not speak at this meeting.

The council took a short break and when they came back Ladner said he wanted to give each council member and any administrative officer an opportunity to make a short opening statement and then would turnover the discussion. Since the ordinance had been brought to the council by Snider, Ladner had him make an opening statement first.

Snider said, "We are here today to discuss ordinance 1335 for community advisory board and I want to say to the members of this committee that developed this ordinance are here today. They have taken their time off work and their busy schedule to be here, and I want to thank them." He also thanked them for the last four years they had spent developing the ordinance.

Snider provided a quick breakdown of the ordinance. It would be composed of eight members, with four people from professions of social work, mental health and education background. The other four members would be selected by the town council. No more than two of them can be from current law enforcement. The board would provide a third-party channel to report grievances in regard to interactions with the Silver City Police Department. The board would then issue a written report to the town council. It will be based on analysis of local crime statistics, communication with similar situated communities, research international best practices and obtain input from the community. Snider pointed out it had a one-year trial period and at that time it could be amended.

Bencomo thanked everyone that spoke for and against the citizens advisory board. He had some issues with the proposed ordinance and said he might be criticized for what he says. A few years ago, a group of people had supported the idea of defunding the police. It had not gone well but in some cases, it had been successfully done. When police officers saw this, they had felt they had no reason to continue their career in law enforcement. "We saw thousands of police officers in this country that could retire submit their retirement papers." Now the country has a shortage of police officers. Not long ago this police department had been down five or six officers, and the chief had to work nights to cover some shifts. "I just don't think this is a good idea." He had heard some criticism of "what are they afraid of?" "They are not afraid. Their job is tough enough as it is."

The police chief has been hired to address these issues. Bencomo liked an earlier comment made about riding along with a police officer and see what they do and suggested it be at night and on a weekend. "It is not an easy job. I feel really uncomfortable with this ordinance." He directed a question to Alex Brown, city manager, and asked if the ordinance would violate current police department polices. Brown said it potentially could. "Because of it being an ordinance, it would become a law, and I would be required to follow it. This potentially could create the problems of me either following the ordinance and potentially violating state law or federal law or union contracts." He said the main problem would be in the ordinance where it allows the board to review the discipline. If the board had a problem with that discipline they can come to the town council. "I see that as oversight."

Bencomo asked Brown if it would violate employee rights or the unions contract. He continued with the question of it violating the contract with the town manager. Brown said potentially yes on all and mostly discipline. Brown said the way it reads the board submits its complaint. The police administration does their job and reviews everything.

The board would have access to that decision and it second guesses Browns' decision, the chief's decision and would violate the union contract. Discipline could be extended and then in the public realm. Brown said he had a real issue with that particular section of the ordinance.

Prince said beyond a short introduction he had concerns about conduct. Ladner said this would not be the time for discussion just a short opening comment.

Prince continued, "I can't tell you how relieved I am to see this ordinance. Since I took office in the first council meeting, I have had to respond to issues that had to be dealt with concerning the police department and it bankrupting the town." He alluded to having to trust the fellow council members, mayor, and city management to get to better outcomes. "I was excited to see Chief Portillo embrace the concerns towards being able to provide better mental health care services to our public service officers." Every budget increase, overtime payment the council had passed it. "Then when I face the public, when I have folks feel comfortable coming to me and talking to me about issues and I try to bring those I am stonewalled and that is extremely discouraging." He thought the amount that the council has been expected to pay attention to and went over all the things that they had to review in the previous meeting of the new year. He said most of the departments already have advisory boards. Prince thought it would be better for it to start with the board and filter up to them. "I do believe that to maintain public trust something like this is needed."

Cano thanked everyone that had working on this so diligently, from the town staff, the community and everyone that has given input. "We really appreciate it, and it is great to have public input for or against." She had a lot of concerns and said she had written two pages down. Her main concern has been it could open them up to more liability and for that she suggested a resolution instead of an ordiance and that could be a good compromise. "I don't think there is a right side or wrong side, but I think there is somewhere in the middle we can meet." Even with the updated version they had received, a lot would still need to change for Cano to vote for it.

Ladner said he had received a lot of emails. What he had seen had been a lot of conflict over the use of advisory board and what the ordinance actually said. "I would like to see the council come together on this and see if we can come up with a good compromise that will satisfy those people wo have been working so hard on this committee for many years." He thanked everyone that had come and provided input. "It does make a difference when you exercise our democratic process."

Ladner turned the meeting over to the council to have a discussion. He asked that they be civil and not violate the open meetings act.

Bencomo said he had not had the opportunity to read the revised ordinance they had just received. He felt they needed time to review it.

Cano wanted to address her questions she had come up with. Because the board would have eight members, like Lambert she saw problems with ties. She suggested removing one social worker giving seven on the board. She still felt seven people might be too many. It says the board would be balanced as feasibly as possible. "To me that is not good enough, and there need to be a little more insistence that the board is balanced in many ways." It says balance by gender and economic status. One thing not included had been balanced by local and transplant. "I think that is very important because I am really concerned that we are going to end up with seven people who lived here ten minutes ago. They don't understand our community. They should have to have lived here at least three years."

Cano said she didn't know why they wanted two social workers. Another concern that she had with the ordinance. The council would not pick four of the board members and they had to be currently employed in their field. "Who has time for this?" She asked because currently she has been involved with the Homeless Housing and Behavioral Health Task Force, and they have had an extremely hard time having mental health professionals at their meetings regularly and consistently. They don't have the time. She continued that social workers would be busy, and teachers are overworked.

The ordinance says the member must be a resident and a registered voter. She wanted a legal opinion on the registered voter part. Cano has someone that she regularly deals with that she thought would be good for this. However, although very involved in the community and a business owner he religiously chooses not to vote. "Just because he doesn't want to vote does not mean he can't have good input."

Cano pointed out that they don't have anything about training in the ordinance. "We are just going to pick eight people and ask them to understand policies and procedures and other things about law enforcement?" She alluded to a recent debacle on a board, and they should have learned from that. Training would have to be part of it.

Prince said he understood residency requirements. "It takes time for people to get up to speed in a community, and I want to make sure that we are able to move with that delicately." People need to understand cultural norms. He addressed the requirement for social workers, mental health professionals and teachers on the board. "I am fortunate to work so much in the medical community here and honestly the biggest thing I can say, and this is just my opinion. It is burnout more than overburden requirements." He had some concerns about required training and went over all the problems that had been seen and he saw being a problem.

Cano pointed out that New Mexico Health Insurance Fund training would not be available because they would have to be employees. Without training the board could go south really fast. They would need to know how to conduct themselves in meetings. She said she would continue to insist on it. Cano also said the transplant part she would continue to be adamant about and gave some examples. "People that have moved here from Chicago, Minnesota or wherever they understand those places, but do they understand New Mexico? Do they understand Grant County? Do they understand Silver City?" She didn't know if that would be part of the interview process, but it will be very important to have people that have been here for generations be included.

"I think often times we have boards and committees that end up with a lot of people that are not from here, who just got here and want to change it to wherever they came from. I think that is an issue." The audience clapped and voiced agreement.

Snider addressed her insistence on training and said if that would be the case the one-year trial needed to be changed to a two-year trial. He didn't know where they would obtain that training. Cano said they could find the needed training. Snider agreed with the residency time. Prince said the applications they have been using all have a residency questions. Cano said that none of them have a requirement, and she wanted that included.

Bencomo said Cano had brought up some good points. He agreed with the residency and said many times they have people that have not been long-term residents. He has had many residents speak to him about being unhappy that people from outside the community influence decisions. "I strongly like the idea of them being long-term residents and that training would be required." He felt five members would be better than eight. He pointed out the size of the council and them not agreeing.

Snider said seven on the board would be good so ties could be broken. It allows for more professional and lay people to be on the board. Prince agreed and said his district has a lot of diversity. He continued with the quorum requirement and a lot of parliamentary procedure can be abused and he wanted to make sure a quorum would be available before scheduling meetings.

Ladner had a comment. He didn't have any input on the advisory board. He spoke to the members of the board that would be appointed by the mayor with the consent of the council. It had specific kinds of people, social worker, mental health professional, and public educator. "I have lived in Silver City for 49 years and I think I have a good understanding of how the community works. What I would like to see is ordinary people on this committee, people who every day come into contact with the police and call them." He spoke to community policing so they would not just be people in uniforms but part of the community. It had been done before and he wanted to see it done again. Some of the comments he had heard in this work session had been people critical of the police.

Prince moved on the removals and vacancies. He thought the requirements were strict but appropriate. It has a 75 percent attendance requirement, and he agreed. Cano asked what would be done if they didn't make that. "If they are popular, will they be kept anyway and this used to get rid of others?" She felt some language changes should be made to make it clearer.

They continued to read through, and Prince asked Brown to read the area he felt would be a problem in powers and duties. The ordinance read as follows. The board shall establish a system whereby citizen allegations of misconduct by law enforcement may be received by the board as a secondary outlet for grievances. Such grievances would be addressed in the following manner. A, a complaint is received by the board. B, within five days of receiving the complaint, the board will inform the chief of police. C, the chief informs the board within the contractually permitted guidelines on confidentiality of the action taken within time allowed by police procedures. D, the board has a follow-up meeting with the complainant. If they are not satisfied, the board will request that the town manager and the town attorney address the issue. E, after the town manager and town attorney have addressed and disposed the complaint, they will report on their actions to the CAB (citizens' advisory board). F, the CAB will issue a written report to the town council and chief of police expressing their satisfaction or dissatisfaction with the decision by the next occurring town council meeting.

Snider said he would like to say a little bit on this section. "If we look at the way it is now, a citizen could come to the police chief and make a complaint and that is basically what is happening in the ordinance along with the rest of the procedures." This would just allow for a third party to go through the procedure.

Cano had a question concerning the public information requests and the problems. She said, as a council member she receives a packet, and someone in her district decides they want a copy of everything, but it includes some personnel matters and discipline. "Wouldn't that be a problem?" Snider started to answer, and Cano said, "That would be a question for the Mr. Reynolds." Jim Reynolds, town attorney said it would be a problem. Under IPRA (inspection of public records act) you can't obtain any discipline matters of any public official because those would be considered matters of opinion. Brown told the council he could not give the outcome of the complaint to the board so they couldn't give it to the complainant. "So why do we need the board if we already have the process in place?" The people in attendance clapped and agreed.

Snider said, "If a person is uncomfortable going directly to the police or town administration it would enable that person to have another source to go through the process." They would have guidelines in place. Alex said he didn't have a problem with them going to the board and the board bringing it to them. The problem arises with the expectation that they will know what the discipline had been. Snider said they would not be expecting that. Brown pointed out that how would they be satisfied if they could not tell them the outcome. He continued with how the issue could continue past the town manager and now it has gone to the council and the union contract has been violated.

Cano questioned Snider about the guidelines, yet they don't appear in the ordinance. Her concern would be how the state has been notorious for passing a law and not having the rules in place and making it up as they go along. She pointed out that not every case would be the same. "These guidelines need to be done before and not afterwards."

Prince said "By doing the work session we are trying to work out these details. I think we are working to address those concerns about unthought through legislations." He spoke to people's trust and how things have been handled.

Cano said she had recently had a situation with the police that had not gone well. She had made a formal complaint to the chief. He dealt with it the way it's dealt with in his department. She had not been exactly pleased with the outcome. He didn't tell her what happened to the officer. She then made a complaint to the town manager who would be his supervisor. The town manager said it had been dealt with, and she said she would be fine. However, because of the way this ordinance has been written, after "I complained to the town manager the town attorney would have to address the situation and report to the citizens' advisory board with a written report which would now be public record. I don't want what happened out there. The officer doesn't need what happened out there nor the chief." Now if it comes to the council everyone in town knows what happened. As a person who would make a complaint, she only wanted it dealt with between herself, the chief, town manager and the officer. She would not want the whole town knowing. This has more problems than just maybe violating some union issues. "I am concerned about the privacy of the public."

Snider said that it would be anonymous. Some changes had been made on the original ordinance. They had taken out the step of contacting the town manager. He went over the numerous steps and how they would work. He said the reports would not have names and be generic.

Bencomo said he had issues of it having to go through so many steps. It should just be going to the police chief and town manager. "I don't see it necessary for the board to issue a written report to the town council expressing their satisfaction or dissatisfaction." People will never be satisfied if not receiving the answer they want. He felt that when people continue to come to the board with complaints and not obtaining the answers or outcomes, they want they will not think the board will be productive. He reiterated the number of steps required.

Prince said, "Without it, which is what we are operating with right now, sometimes I have found it to be extremely difficult to notice trends and changes that are happening in our various departments and specifically inside our law enforcement department." He alluded to it being difficult because of the new insurers he could not pin down the cost of the insurance now. He asked Brown for updated costs.

Brown said the insurance cost for everything but workmens comp for the police department comes to $390,000 this fiscal year and he looked back and in 2022 it had been $360,000. This made a $30,000 difference. Prince quoted $75,000 and Brown didn't know where he had found that figure. They discussed the different insurers and amounts. Brown did say the deductible had been made higher. Now it will be $100,000 and used to be $10,000. They have not had any claims against the police in the past two years.

Cano suggested removing a section in the ordinance. It had to do with reports to the town council. She didn't think they should have a report from the board every month. Snider said they would not have that many complaints and Bencomo said why have the board.

Prince said this would be the change in procedure that with help the council avoid some of the challenges that they have been seeing. He alluded to better responses saving lives.

Cano said, "I am very sensitive to what happened to Ms. Bascom, and I am a close part of her family. We need to stop punishing our current administration for what happened with the last one." The audience clapped and agreed. She asked to continue the conversation, and she wanted to be part of it but do it with the understanding that they stop bringing this up every single time during the work session. "I think it is just creating more pain for everyone in the room that was involved in any way, shape or form. It is not helping the process." She again asked them to stop and said she would appreciate it.

Ladner wanted people to realize that by ordinance Brown has been given authority to manage the town and the police department comes under that. "If he is not doing his job one of the things the council can do is to fire him but if he is doing his job let him, do it." At that point the audience clapped and agreed.

Prince continued on with the power and responsibility of the council and the checks and balances. He did a short civics 101 rendition. "I am uncomfortable with having public representatives that are not able to represent the needs of the public."

Brown responded to what Prince had said. He spoke to the communication between the two branches. Prince had brought him complaints and he has told Brown that the people have a lot of mistrust and fear of retaliation. Prince tells Brown he hears it all the time. Brown asks him to give him specific examples so he can provide the other side of the story or verify something had been done wrong. "He never does it, never." Prince, "This is devolving into a back-and-forth." Prince started to continue, and Ladner stopped the interaction and said they needed to get back to discussing the ordinance.

Cano moved to another area of concern in the ordinance. She cited section four and it addressing homelessness, addiction, mental illness and domestic violence in the community and to shifting the responsibility of dealing with the complex issues away from law enforcement. She brought up the Housing and Behavioral Health Task Force. The task force has been working very closely with law enforcement both at the county and city level including the mining district. "Their input has been very important for what the task force has been doing." The task force had been productive because of law enforcement involvement. This part really concerned Cano.

Recently Cano said she, Ladner, Brown and about 40 other community members had been in a meeting with the governor. "One of the things she dinged us on as a community was the fact that we have so many people doing the same thing, duplicating services and not working together."

Snider said what they had really wanted to say in the ordinance had been they sought solutions to these problems. Cano asked for that to be changed to reflect what he said.

Prince said he had heard complaints from the officers that they didn't want to do crisis intervention. They didn't know so much of their effort would be towards dealing with societal issues. Dealing with medical issues would not always need law enforcement. "We do need public safety and some of the calls will be for domestic violence, and we need to ensure safety. However, this is also why we do have call ins so that there is an advocate available. That way if there is a crisis situation that the outcome can be changed. It is really important to have trained personnel, training is critical." Prince added it was not a crime to be homeless, addicted and mentally ill.

Cano said this would go back to the whole idea of training. If someone on the board that does not have training, such as social worker, how would they deal with this. "We need guidelines for being on this board. She pointed out another place that removed law enforcement.

Prince addressed another concern about the board having access to all bargaining agreements with the town of Silver City. Brown said they would not be a problem as all those documents can be obtained through an IPRA request. Prince asked if the board could be included in any of the contract process. Brown said no in accordance with the collective bargaining ordinance. Prince continued on how the board could be involved. Brown said they could take recommendations before negotiations but not be part of. Prince continued with insistence on how they could be part of the negotiations.

Ladner said, "Seems like we are going around and around here." He asked the council if they had something they would want to vote on at the next council meeting. The council agreed they needed another work session.

Cano had a few more questions. She read an area that said the board would have full access to information relevant to the hiring process when it became necessary to hire a new police chief and will advise the town manager from the community at large. She thought back to when Chief Portillo had been hired, and they had a lot of community involvement. Everyone in the community should have the same amount of input. The ordinance seems to say the board would have involvement in the hiring of the new police chief. "I believe that is the town manager's job and no one else's."

Snider said they would be able to have some community input but won't say who to hire. This makes it sound like they will be more involved in the process besides community input.

Prince read the proposed ordinance and said, "It is a permanent position, and you know it's a very dangerous job being police chief." He compared it to the search committee that they had started when they thought the town manager would be retiring soon.

Cano said, "That was not a search committee that was a job description committee." They would not be involved in the search or hiring. "If we are doing this, are we going to need a committee to tell the town manager what to do when we hire a new chief of police or a new fire marshal? Where does it stop? Why do we hire  town manager if we have this committee that is going to make the decisions?" The audience clapped and agreed. "It is not being clear enough."

Snider said the ordinance said to advise and making suggestions. Cano asked what would happen if a thousand people want to advise the town manager and would he have to meet with all of them. "I don't like this one at all and I wonder if it this is overreach based on the town manager's contract." She asked Reynolds for a legal opinion at some point on this issue.

Cano addressed the newly added requirement of the ordinance for the union representative to meet with them every other month and establish an open and productive communication with the rank-and-file members of the Silver City police department. Cano asked if the union had agreed to this or would be forced. Someone from the audience said they had agreed.

Bencomo had a question for Snider. "Why is it so important that the board have the ability to look over what's negotiated in the contract? Why is it so necessary?" Snider said to facilitate a better understanding of the police department working so that they can make decisions. Cano asked why they would not be doing it with the fire department.

Prince said, "With the police department there would be a lot of concerns that come up and not inherently negative ones." He had seen a lot of contracts recently in town and spoke to the hospital, university and even school districts. He said people have had the wool pulled over their eyes. Having more eyes on the contracts Prince thought would be good. They have the ability to access funds or resources that take away from the community.

Cano didn't have an issue with review of the contracts but treating employees differently. "It is pretty naive to think we will never have a bad firefighter or a bad person in utilities. All should be treated the same." She didn't know if knowing the contract negotiations information beforehand would be a fair practice.

Ladner said he would say this one last time. "I think what we are into could be defined as micromanaging." The audience clapped and agreed. He had spoken to three or four councilors since he had been mayor, and they somehow felt they should be telling the manager how to manage the town. "You hire him, you should be evaluating him. Are you doing that? If he is not doing his job, then you should fire him. If he is doing his job, then give him a pat on the back and maybe a raise." He felt during the whole discussion they had gone around and around, and cherry picked little comments and statements. "I am not sure we will ever get to the crux of the issue."

Cano pointed out the new version has increased the trial time to two years instead of the original one year and asked why. Snider said because the council had asked for training. It will make the process longer to put them in place. Prince said it should be three years because of the term times.

Ladner spoke to setting up another work session. "The proposed changes that you spoke to would need to be made before so the council would have them for review."

Snider wanted to address his impression that the council has been thinking this should not even be an ordinance. They should look at what a resolution is and an ordinance and the difference. A resolution would be an intent, and an ordinance would be a law. This should be an ordinance. "It is not a temporary thing." Ladner pointed out it would be temporary because it had a one or two year trial. Snider said at that time they would vote if it had been effective, and he thought it would be.

Cano countered that it could be a resolution and if effective it could become an ordinance. The audience clapped and agreed.

Ladner asked Reynolds for guidance on ordinances. Reynolds said ordinances will be law and must be followed. Ladner said a resolution would be an understanding, what they want to do. "I have an understanding of those two concepts. What I have trouble with is inserting the word advisory into an ordinance." Reynolds did not see that as a problem. He did have a question. He didn't know how to draft the new ordinance with different versions. A discussion on the issue went on and how to incorporate the changes and which ones. Cano and Snider will meet with others involved so they would not have a quorum to make the changes.

Meeting adjourned